Curse

Gill Halendt · Nov 14, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Because life isn't always fair and if it brings new players into the game so be it.

I'd accept it if there was no other choice. This is deliberately unfair. I have the right to criticize it.

kostolomac · Nov 14, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Why are the guardian and vanquisher title owners angry again? I couldn't bother reading through all the posts. Because of money or faction they didn't recieve ? Or are they just bitter because the new players will get more rewards?

Rocky Raccoon · Nov 14, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I'd accept it if there was no other choice. This is deliberately unfair. I have the right to criticize it.

Just a little quote.

Just remember, there's a right way and a wrong way to do everything and the wrong way is to keep trying to make everybody else do it the right way.
~M*A*S*H, Colonel Potter

Another Felldspar · Nov 14, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by felwyn

True.

But consider this: if we had been given the rewards as we first progressed in the game, would not the money mass been the same?

If now the rewards are viable and, say, the population magically doubles and completes the game and legenedary guardian within the week...would it damage the economy then? Or even better: if we all stopped arguing and started completing books like crazy would THAT not damage the economy?

Mostly good points, and you're one of the few people that are actually discussing this with any reasoning at all involved. Well, except for that comment about the magical doubling of the population -- where did THAT come from?

Like you I don't have access to the actual numbers so all I can do is speculate. But, economical damage would most assuredly be done with a large and sudden influx of new gold. As far as gold accumulation over time as people complete missions and fill books I would guess it would be comparable to the gold accumulation that happened with HFFF. At least now the accumulation won't be done with bots.

Gill Halendt · Nov 14, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Just a little quote.

Just remember, there's a right way and a wrong way to do everything and the wrong way is to keep trying to make everybody else do it the right way.
~M*A*S*H, Colonel Potter

Oh well... That's exactly what's going on here. Some people feel a bit let down for such a late change. What do you do? You try to convince them that everything is ok and they have no reason to complain.

I can stop replying here, I'll still consider this an half-baked update with some debatable and unfair approach towards older players. Great for bringing new players in. Who care about the older ones anyway, Anet got they're money...

Mind you, this could never stop me from enjoying this game. To me it was just a matter of principle. Funny to see how people can be off-putting when they've nothing to loose, and nothing they're interested in is involved.

I'm playing just like I did yesterday, I already completed a new book, I'll get a grip.

felwyn · Nov 14, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

and if it brings new players into the game so be it.

WTS NEW GUILDWARS! NOW WITH BOOKS!

Yeah I can see new players already queueing up as we speak...

Oink The Pig · Nov 14, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Why are the guardian and vanquisher title owners angry again? I couldn't bother reading through all the posts. Because of money or faction they didn't recieve ? Or are they just bitter because the new players will get more rewards?

This sentiment ignores those of us who are close to finishing a guardian title, but haven't, and now would have to repeat at least some number of missions (particularly ones that we might've just finished earlier in the week) in order to turn in even a partial book. This also ignores those of us who want to play with more than one character but now have to grind those SS/LB titles despite having finished NF on those characters. Nevermind the fact that we can't view any of the filled pages for missions we've already done just from an art perspective. Looking at them on wiki doesn't count. I could care less about the gold/xp rewards for the stuff I've already done, but I can't get any of the improved rewards for the stuff I haven't done without repeating stuff that I did not long before the update.

The flooding in of both Luxon + Kurzick faction simultaneously without removing the penalty for cashing in one side's points wasn't very graceful either. I actually had enough faction coming in where I could've gotten my first Luxon rank and my next Kurzick rank, but instead had to balance them out to minimize the waste and got neither.

Speaking of Kurzick/Luxon faction...the additional faction for kills in AB is not very significant. AB is about capping, not just killing. In fact, focusing on kills instead of capping is a pretty good way to lose. The time spent waiting for an AB match + actually playing through it makes ABs seem quite inefficient for faction gaining.

While I appreciate the other changes (<3 account-wide treasure/wisdom), I don't like the fact that I'm basically punished for having completed some HM missions toward the title (which I have not yet achieved) just two days before the update. And with drunkard and sweet tooth reflecting the use of items that do have an effect on PvE (drunk skills, consummable-type sweets), this update isn't really going to allow me to get the full benefit out of any characters other than my "main".

garethporlest18 · Nov 14, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Well for NM books, you'd be getting about 19k per character per campaign you beat. I'm not sure if you could separate them to get both NM and HM book rewards, but if it was possible then you'd be getting probably 25k per character per HM campaign beaten. Now most people would make about 95k just like that, within 10-15 minutes. Wouldn't affect the economy that much.

You'd also get 60k Faction for Kurzick or Luxon per character NM and 120k per character HM. For some (like myself) that could be 360k faction just like that. Again not that bad.

The only other thing I could think of is what that person quoted above, them not being able to hand it out retroactively, which wouldn't make much sense considering they can see which missions we've done and haven't done, HM and NM.

I finished the Proph book today on my warrior, who's done those missions numerous times and it was fairly fun going over them again with him, gained 8k and 80k experience.

Kha · Nov 14, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

I'm so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing tired of hearing all of the "you play for fun, stop complaining" posts. It's like they don't even understand or care to listen to others. No duh people play for fun, but tell me exactly what is right with ANet not giving older players the same rewards as newer players? It's one thing to make things easier for new players because that is inevitably how online games work as they evolve, but to say that older players don't deserve the rewards for the same work is bullshit plain and simple. The point here is showing that ANet isn't caring about their older players as much as pleasing newer players, and that gives me little hope that the HoM is going to show ANet's thanks of those that played GW1 and choose to continue to support them by BUYING and playing GW2. This update helps newer players/character get a good ranking in their titles by the time they beat the game; unfortunately it does little to help with grinding and does little to acknowledge players who have already been playing and supporting the game through the YEARS that Guild Wars: Faction and the later releases have been out. If a company is going to make older players work harder for the same rewards that newer players get, it gives its community little faith that they are being appreciated for supporting the company for the years they've been involved.

Another Felldspar · Nov 14, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Mind you, this could never stop me from enjoying this game. To me it was just a matter of principle. Funny to see how people can be off-putting when they've nothing to loose, and nothing they're interested in is involved.

You know, that's actually quite insulting.

What possibly could make you believe that people that are arguing for the current implementation have nothing to lose? Do you really think that Risky Ranger is new to the game or has never completed a hard mode mission? Gimme a break... Yes, I would have profited had they chosen to make the storybooks retroactive. I'll wager 10k that Risky Ranger would have profited too. But at what cost to the economy? We can have something to lose and still disagree with you and the others that refuse to be satisfied by the explanation that was given for why it was done this way.

EPO Bot · Nov 14, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

I like how there are more pugs forming again. That scene was dead for months. Good for casual pve'ers like me.

Striken7 · Nov 14, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

This looks like a pretty good update, which is kind of unexpected. More ways to cut down on grind is always win.

What is expected though is the number of completely selfish people turning up who want all the books to be retroactive. Anyone with Legendary Guardians does not need the gold, they do not need the experience, and they do not need the faction. There is absolutely no reason for the books to be retroactive other then "because I want it that way or else I'll cry!"

People need to grow up.

Cluebag · Nov 14, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I have a few gripes with how this update was rolled out.

The argument that making books retroactive would have some sort of adverse effect on the economy is a bunch of crap. Every month, the xunlai tourney introduces a shitload of 'free money', more so I would imagine than everyone turning in their retro legendary guardians and handfuls of protectors for each campaign. Personally, I'm not too concerned about the money aspect, but I feel the reason Anet gave for withholding the money was bs.

The suggestion/implication that the alliance reputation titles would be less grindy is complete and utter bullshit. 10 million motherRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing faction is still 10 million motherRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing faction, regardless of the other methods of obtaining it. It still is likely going to take hundreds of hours to obtain, with similar repetition. Granted we now don't have to do hfff 25 thousand times, however, hundreds of vanquishes or 80 odd hm mission runs thru cantha still qualify as grind in my book. No other 'playable' pve title comes even close to the insanity that the allegiance titles require. I guess in retrospect, I'm the dumbass cause I could have botted the title way back when and felt no repercussions, like the plenty of people who I know did as such. Silly me for not taking advantage of the gray area that Anet had concerning macros for however many years and for trying to play fair and adhere to the eula. I'll know better next time, but I digress.

Going back to retroactive book rewards, personally, I'm for getting credit for having completed legendary vanq/guard/whatever as far as allegiance faction is concerned. That's one or so fewer runs (out of the 80 something) that would be required for the title, depending on how many toons people took thru the campaigns. And as far as crediting people for having previously accomplished things, umm, when I look at my map, I can see which toons have completed which missions. I'm sure there is a way that the devs can figure out what each toon has accomplished and allow them to individually buy pages for their books based on how far along they managed to get thru the respective campaigns. Like I said before, the money doesn't bother me, so if that part were scrapped, I'd be fine. The idea of taking umpteen toons yet again thru the missions another 80 times is crap. I still don't favor taking any of my 10 toons thru an additional 70 times, had I completed factions on each of them and the books did happen to be retroactive, but at least the veterans would feel as something resembling a bone had been thrown at em.

The other thing that continues to be ignored, which continues to dick over veterans, is the survivor title. People who are kind of attached to their original character and wish not to re-roll a new main end up getting the shaft here, and the indifference Anet has towards veterans on this matter saddens me. I don't have any problems with making things easier for new players, I just am getting a bit tired of bending over and taking one for the team, when it comes towards Anet's attitude towards veterans.

I'm sure Anet's apologists on the forums will be quick to flame me, and that's fine, I'd expect nothing less. I feel that I give Anet a lot of credit where its due, and that I'm not in the wrong for expressing my sentiments on the things that disappoint me, for those who would be quick to make assumptions and suggest that I'm some sort of woebegone asshole. Overall the update wasn't a bad one. I just feel that the fact that the faction aspect of the books not being retroactive was a bad decision, and the fact that the allegiance titles remain as a giant grind and continues to suck. Maybe I was under the wrong impression when I heard that 'hfff wouldn't be the optimum method of obtaining the title' (or whatever the quote was), that I read into it as being reduced grind to achieve the title and it would take significantly less time to max it. I guess I wasn't expecting it to be 'instead of 400 hours or mindless grind it's now only 350 hours of different, slightly-less-mindless grind.' Wishful thinking on my part, I suppose.

natuxatu · Nov 14, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I pretty much agree with everything there. Well said cluebag. Almost makes me want to buy the new expansion for a certain other mmo. It's a shame though because i really do like guild wars. Though non ot the updates affect me personally since i don't care too much about titles and stuff but I certainly can understand and tend to agree with those that are upset.

Valcion · Nov 14, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

This looks like a pretty good update, which is kind of unexpected. More ways to cut down on grind is always win.

What is expected though is the number of completely selfish people turning up who want all the books to be retroactive. Anyone with Legendary Guardians does not need the gold, they do not need the experience, and they do not need the faction. There is absolutely no reason for the books to be retroactive other then "because I want it that way or else I'll cry!"

People need to grow up.

1. agree
2. agree
3. are you RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing out of your mind?

Anyways, cluebag summed everything up pretty well. Overall a very nice update, but it could've been fleshed out a bit more.

darted · Nov 14, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Very good sounding update. I have already logged into all characters.

The only problem was throwing away almost 32000 Kurzick because I was closer to a Luxon title upgrade
Oh well.

I look forward to playing this update and seeing how it goes.

Clone · Nov 14, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cluebag

The suggestion/implication that the alliance reputation titles would be less grindy is complete and utter bullshit.

I think Cluebag nails it. Anet has obfuscated the grind, but the assertion that it has been removed is absurd. I know I'm not playing through 800+ hard mode missions to max my Kurzicks title. 10,000,000 faction is just as much grind now as it was with HFFF.

moriz · Nov 14, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

to cluebag: what do you want anet to do for the "veterans" then? do you honestly want anet to retroactively activate survivor for your old characters? if so, consider this:

there are already tons of people who got their legendary survivor the normal way. retroactively activating survivor for older characters would be a huge kick in THEIR nuts. if that is to happen, are you prepared to say to those people: "sorry, too bad, suck it up princess"? if that's the case, how can you possibly complain in this instance?

i commend anet for producing such a good game. but please, whatever you did to attract such asinine players such as cluebag, with senses of entitlement bigger than a sperm whale... please do not do that for GW2. attracting such players will only ensure that you can NEVER please them no matter what you do.

to players like cluebag: anet is not obligated to please you. the game is what it is, and for the majority of players (novices and veterans alike), the game is now in a very good place. if you want to stay, then shutup and play. if you don't want to stay, then don't let the door hit you on the rear on your way out.

darted · Nov 14, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cluebag

I have a few gripes with how this update was rolled out.

The argument that making books retroactive would have some sort of adverse effect on the economy is a bunch of crap. Every month, the xunlai tourney introduces a shitload of 'free money', more so I would imagine than everyone turning in their retro legendary guardians and handfuls of protectors for each campaign. Personally, I'm not too concerned about the money aspect, but I feel the reason Anet gave for withholding the money was bs.

The suggestion/implication that the alliance reputation titles would be less grindy is complete and utter bullshit. 10 million motherRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing faction is still 10 million motherRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing faction, regardless of the other methods of obtaining it. It still is likely going to take hundreds of hours to obtain, with similar repetition. Granted we now don't have to do hfff 25 thousand times, however, hundreds of vanquishes or 80 odd hm mission runs thru cantha still qualify as grind in my book. No other 'playable' pve title comes even close to the insanity that the allegiance titles require. I guess in retrospect, I'm the dumbass cause I could have botted the title way back when and felt no repercussions, like the plenty of people who I know did as such. Silly me for not taking advantage of the gray area that Anet had concerning macros for however many years and for trying to play fair and adhere to the eula. I'll know better next time, but I digress.

Going back to retroactive book rewards, personally, I'm for getting credit for having completed legendary vanq/guard/whatever as far as allegiance faction is concerned. That's one or so fewer runs (out of the 80 something) that would be required for the title, depending on how many toons people took thru the campaigns. And as far as crediting people for having previously accomplished things, umm, when I look at my map, I can see which toons have completed which missions. I'm sure there is a way that the devs can figure out what each toon has accomplished and allow them to individually buy pages for their books based on how far along they managed to get thru the respective campaigns. Like I said before, the money doesn't bother me, so if that part were scrapped, I'd be fine. The idea of taking umpteen toons yet again thru the missions another 80 times is crap. I still don't favor taking any of my 10 toons thru an additional 70 times, had I completed factions on each of them and the books did happen to be retroactive, but at least the veterans would feel as something resembling a bone had been thrown at em.

The other thing that continues to be ignored, which continues to dick over veterans, is the survivor title. People who are kind of attached to their original character and wish not to re-roll a new main end up getting the shaft here, and the indifference Anet has towards veterans on this matter saddens me. I don't have any problems with making things easier for new players, I just am getting a bit tired of bending over and taking one for the team, when it comes towards Anet's attitude towards veterans.

I'm sure Anet's apologists on the forums will be quick to flame me, and that's fine, I'd expect nothing less. I feel that I give Anet a lot of credit where its due, and that I'm not in the wrong for expressing my sentiments on the things that disappoint me, for those who would be quick to make assumptions and suggest that I'm some sort of woebegone asshole. Overall the update wasn't a bad one. I just feel that the fact that the faction aspect of the books not being retroactive was a bad decision, and the fact that the allegiance titles remain as a giant grind and continues to suck. Maybe I was under the wrong impression when I heard that 'hfff wouldn't be the optimum method of obtaining the title' (or whatever the quote was), that I read into it as being reduced grind to achieve the title and it would take significantly less time to max it. I guess I wasn't expecting it to be 'instead of 400 hours or mindless grind it's now only 350 hours of different, slightly-less-mindless grind.' Wishful thinking on my part, I suppose.

I don't totally agree with your post. However, I will say that survivor is easiest in Nightfall...So? I started with Prophecies and don't sweat it. I play to enjoy the game. The titles are a plus, but really I only care about the titles that have tangible benefit to PVE - which Survivor doesn't. I think those that make max Survivor are either great players that hang back (not lack of participate but unlikely they are trying to tank in the midst of melee) and always have good pugs or are run up by guildies...

<flame bait that that statement is it is my opinion>

I will wait and see on the decrease in grind, but from my first impression it will make it less AB only or grind, just as awarding points by getting the blessing from the priest made it more interesting for me. I don't really care for the PVP too often. It is fun distraction, but I generally have to be able to walk away for awhile to deal with real life and PVP is NOT conducive to uncontrolled interruptions.

Trylo · Nov 14, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

so... our skill update will be coming when?

and what about those changes to hero battles izzy was talking about...